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Lethal injection… cruel and unusual?

 

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Getty_rf_photo_of_cat_and_praying_mantis Campi 227 posts

Well I do not see men in orange working around town and know most prisons would rather cut guards they pay for them to supervise community service.

 
Male_user frydd666 22 posts

Campi, The military used to use prisoners for things like cleaning up highways. Ft. Riley had a place called a Retrain Brigade. This was like the last chance before Leavenworth prison. I have seen them out picking up trash along the highways and there was always an MP car there and an MP or 2 usually with shotguns. Sadly, I guess part of the new Army, they closed it down several years ago. I cannot say how effective it was, but I do know those boys weren’t molly coddled. Someone told me they were only allowed to go out 5 miles from post, but I saw them a lot farther out than that. Once they were dropped off, they went out and cleaned the highways of trash and when they were done, a truck came and got them and took them back.

 
Getty_rf_photo_of_cat_and_praying_mantis Campi 227 posts

Well I still think taking an island and letting them loose there while guarding the waters would be a good solution. If they live or die would not matter as long as they do it on their island let them come up with their rules and own society and have cameras on the island so that we can not only monitor them but also broadcast it as a form of big brother or some kind of reality TV show. Then every month air drop in supplies. This would be very cost effective after the facility is acquired and the only upkeep costs would be the security. Then every country from around the world could place their condemned here and we would split the costs so many ways that they would be a fraction of what the current cost is. We could brain storm all day long but sadly until there is clear unwavering discipline given across the board that disregards race, social status, or influence dealing out punishment will be unjust. Then until we catch every criminal for every crime the justice system will not be a true deterrent because people will think they can get away with whatever they are planning and or just plan better. The death penalty should be given out for EVERY murder that can be proven 100% and then any other suspected murder or man slaughter should be given a flat time like 50 years. Then while we are on the subject the current prison system is a joke it’s a place to store people away from others. They need to be made to contribute to society in some way while the tax payers are footing the bill. They should use them to tear down derelict buildings and clean streets. They should do the jobs everyone says needs done around the town but the cities say they just don’t have the man power.

 
Male_user frydd666 22 posts

Campi,
Damned good response! I agree entirely. As a friend of mine once said, the death penalty is a necessary evil. I agree that as long as humans are in control of something like this, there will always be unjustness and corruptibility. The debate will always go on. I think the issue is when feelings are involved. We are taught it is wrong to take a life, yet we will do it in the name of war or justice. I too believe in the death penalty. I also am sure there have been people put to death innocently, however, the alternative is just as true. I am also sure there are people out there that have committed murder and have gotten away with it. The system is not without it’s flaws, but I have not seen anything or heard anyone come up with anything better. The anti death penalty people will say it is up to God to determine if these persons are guilty or not, however, how many of them would be willing to say that if it was their child or loved one that was horribly murdered? Yet, we have those hardliners that would have no problem with hanging a person without worrying about getting all the facts in first. I think this is an unwinnable argument, and until someone can come up with a better idea, then we will just have to deal with it. I also agree that there is no real way to kill someone humanely. I have heard horror stories about all the different ways to execute people. The needle infiltrates during lethal injection, the gas takes to long to work in the gas chamber, the person caught fire in the electric chair or the first jolt didn’t kill the person and several jolts had to be administered, or the head was torn off during the hanging. The fact is, there is no good way to execute someone. There is always the potential for problems. We try to be civilized, but mankind is still, inside, and animal. we always will be. Contrary to what some believe, killing is in our nature and always has been. We try to become more civilized and do things better, but being human, we are still fallible and we do make mistakes. That doesn’t mean we need to just give up. It means we need to realize that there are some things we are just not real good at, and killing another human being is one if them. It goes against our religion (however, as you stated, we have killed millions in the name of religion and are still doing it) as well as against our upbringing. I think this is also a major reason we have so many vets out there with PTSD and many psychological issues. They have done something that they have been taught is fundamentally wrong on all levels. In cases where we take another person’s life, we are putting ourselves in the place of God, and we do not do so good trying to fill his shoes, but again, it is something that I strongly feel is a necessary evil. Without it, our society would decay into complete chaos and anarchy. What happens when there is not more room to put a person in prison for murder? Where do we put them? People say build more prisons, but don’t build it where live. So it is indeed a major dilemma. The prisons are over crowded now and it isn’t getting any better. Who do we release? Which criminal is safer to put on the streets? We can put the local dope dealer out there and he will happily sell drugs to your kids, we can put the sexual offender out there, and he may rape your wife or child, It goes on and on. We can put the old alcoholic out there since he is not violent, but what happens when he gets drunk and has a wreck and kills an entire family? This issue gets bigger all the time. Some politicians are trying to fix it, and for that, I do truly thank them, but it is not an easy fix by any means. As you stated, putting a man or woman in jail for the rest of their lives is killing them, but doing it very slowly and yes, the cost to the tax payer is enormous. Like it or not, they still have certain rights. I do not begrudge them their rights, they are still human beings, but the tax payer pays for these rights. Now we also have the mentally ill people in jails and prisons to worry about. I read someplace that to be considered mentally retarded, a person’s IQ has to be 70 or less. There are many people in prison or jail with IQs of 70 or below. You do not find an up and coming Albert Einstein in jail. So this adds to the strain. The plain truth is, the legal system in this country is not well and we are struggling with it daily. Maybe one day the perfect solution will come along, but I highly doubt it. if it were me on death row, I would think it was cruel and inhuman also. That is just the survivor instinct coming out, but reality is, what else do we do with them? I damned sure don’t want a Jeffrey Dahlmer or Ted Bundy in my neighborhood. from what I have seen, compared to some of the other methods of execution, I do feel that we have come a long way in trying to make the execution as painless as possible, and that is better than some of those being executed did for their victims.

 
Getty_rf_photo_of_cat_and_praying_mantis Campi 227 posts

The sad truth is no matter what method people will try to find a fault or flaw and will appeal and drag out their death because let’s face it. I would too. I do not fear death but I do not seek it either. I have heard and seen many ways people have been put to death over my studies of history and my years of reading pretty much whatever I can get my hands on. There is no real way to kill anything that cannot be contested as cruel just because the definition of the word and that fact that having your life snuffed out before natural death is something no one wants done onto themselves. Sadly the world we live in one must take life to keep theirs going. Some argue that’s its possible going vegan but you kill the plant to eat it or even if you eat only fruits and nuts your ending the life that could of been of a potential plant. We can justify killing lesser animals and plants easily. Killing another of our own species gets into not only psychological but also spiritual issues that bring peoples reality into question. When you start mixing in beliefs and religion you enter into areas where people will fight and get violent even kill in the name of (kinda funny no?). So when dealing with an issue like this no one will agree and the only thing left is compromise which will leave both parties unhappy. This debate will go on for as long as life itself still takes place. Sadly I can see both sides of the coin and sadly neither is right. Putting a man/woman in jail for the rest of their life is basically killing them. Then they are just a burden on society. There is no good answer and I thought about typing out the arguments myself so I wouldn’t have to listen to them again but open dialogue is good. So I am for death penalty and say that if it is proven 100% guilty with undeniable proof such as unaltered video or untainted triple checked forensics they should have a death house at the court house and all should get the same punishment no exceptions, no excuses, no mitigating circumstances. But the truth is as long as people control anything it will become either corrupt or unjust and we are left with the mess we have before us now.

 
Horn_toad Transporter 41 posts

LOL. I like it Campi

 
Male_user frydd666 22 posts

Campi, not a bad idea! I see you are one of those people who puts a lot of thought into things!

 
Getty_rf_photo_of_cat_and_praying_mantis Campi 227 posts

Well the issue seems to be the method is too complicated. Lethal injection should be done away with. Go to a guaranteed death that can’t be messed up. Put a large stone block weighing oww I would say 10 tons. Place it 100 foot in the air on some steel guides. Then place a large steel plate under it that is a foot thick with straps to hold the condemned in place. Then have a simple mechanism that drops it like a crane. Then place the condemned in let the block loose and stand behind the plastic shields. This method though barbaric would cause instantaneous death and is no more cruel or unusual then lethal injections, firing squad, or gas chamber. This method in fact would be so fast it might even boarder on painless. And if that not good enough put a few drops of acid in their mouth and let them trip like crazy before we drop the rock. Also make it a public event.

 
Male_user frydd666 22 posts

With all the crap going on about how long the guy in Oklahoma took to die, lethal injection is a hot topic. However, they issued are all screwed up. First off, it was not the drugs that didn’t work. The catheter came out of the vein and infiltrated. This is the fault of the person starting the IV, not the drug. I spent 6 years as an EMT-I/D. Secondly, I do not feel sorry for these people, how sorry did they feel for their victims? If all else fails, do like Wyoming, Utah, and a couple of other states are doing and go back to firing squad. I do agree about cruel and unusual punishment not being used, but it does not mean painless. If they suffer a little bit, who cares?

 
Isr DT Instructor 108 posts

I like the no more than their victims suffered part myself. Which is not cruel or unusual, but rather fair.

 
E-tivity-logo140x70 GeorgeBooth 14 posts

Transporter,

Unless we come up with a way to expedite our “cooking process”, that inmate will be a drain on the system for the next 15-30 years. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to society to make use of that inmate and defer the cost?

Inmates are a drain on the tax base, they serve no other purpose than to bleed the system and soak up resources, why not make them earn their keep so to speak? Jail has become to posh in my humble opinion these days, what is the deterent?

TVs, Commissary, College degrees…. hell I can’t afford to go back to college right now, but if I played my cards right, I could get a good attorney, commit a non violent crime, get sent to the right institution and walk out with a degree. I say put them to work. Not answering phone banks or making shampoo, but real honest to god labor in the middle of the desert.

 
Horn_toad Transporter 41 posts

George I have to decline the solar city idea. Sorry. UNLESS we can harness that power to fry the scumbags who are on death row! THAT would be OK I suppose.

 
Correction_officer jamestown0509 313 posts

They still have chain gangs in Georgia and Alabama. I met an officer from Georgia who came to transport an inmate we captured back to serve his sentence. This officer came into the sallyport then secured his special 10 inch S&W .50 cal pistol. He had a station wagon. We signed the papers for transfer back to Georgia. He told the inmate to go to the bathroom because we “ain’t stopping son.” So he takes the inmate places him on his back in the station wagon handcuffed spread eagle style with feet chained to the floor as well. Said, “ok son here we go.”

 
E-tivity-logo140x70 GeorgeBooth 14 posts

I have considered this conundrum on countless occassions: My solution is simple and kills two bird with one stone.

Take all the prisoners (with life sentences, 10+ years) in CA, AZ, UT, NM and NV, and train them to install and maintain solar panels.

Have them install those solar panels in the middle of death valley. The solar farm would be a hundred miles by a hundred miles wide. That much solar energy would produce a minimum of half the US energy needs. The prisoners would work from their own “Cities” out in the desert, Minimal security would be required due to the climate of the desert anyhow. Tens of miles could be guarded by one guard using infra-red and seismic devices around the “City” perimiter.

The prison would essentially be a semblance of normality with a store, plenty of off time activities to keep the inmates occupied between shifts. Inmates in the desert City would be afforded some liberties normal inmates would not get, but the payoff for the rest of civilization would be ten fold. Would I commute a death sentence for hard labor in the desert, sure, without a doubt. Is it cruel and unusual punishment? I suppose that would be up to the inmate. A life of work and purpose or the needle, take your pick.

 
Male_user Canusxiii 116 posts

I haved a suggestion;liked the movie the dirty dozens,sent them overseas to Iraq and Asganistan for two years,their jobs to find IEDS……you succeed ,get a break if not,eye for and eye…….cruel and unusual my ass …….

 
Remle-riflepg irish assassin 286 posts

I’m gonna go home and work on attaching a generator to an old exercise bike, Corner the market, and make a fortune. Early retirement here I come!!!

Must say I do like the whole balancing punishment with the crime idea. Truth of it really is very little actually qualifies as “cruel” or “unusual” in the way of crime and punishment. Death by hanging, firing squad, lethal injection if done right happens fast. Sorry thats NOT cruel. Now waterboarding, thats cruel. Bamboo shoots under the fingernails, thats cruel. Bludgeoning someone with a tire iron, thats cruel. Unusual is anything out of the norm. So thats a gray area that isn’t very dependable way to judge legal matters. Being the victim of a crime and living in fear with a feeling of being vicimized the rest of your life. Well now thats both cruel and unusual but seems like nobody cares about the victims.

 
Getty_rf_photo_of_cat_and_praying_mantis Campi 227 posts

We need to amend the constitution to read as fallows. “In the case of capital punishment the plaintiff if found guilty is subject to no more cruel or unusual punishment then up to the extent at which the victim suffered caused by the direct or indirect actions of the plaintiff"

 
Correction_officer jamestown0509 313 posts

Well I didn’t suggest this idea but one of the state COs suggested that if a life inmate dies during incarceration that they mummify him, stack him in a corner until his sentence was served. Time served.

 
Male_user commander 277 posts

That is a brilliant idea Irish. I think you should submit that plan to the Gov’s office. Would save a lot of money and still get the same result.

 
Remle-riflepg irish assassin 286 posts

Would it be to screwed up to have the rest of the inmates on death row pedal bikes with generators to power the chair?

 
Correction_officer jamestown0509 313 posts

Commander I think this discussion also leads to being called for jury duty. A few years ago while I was still a CO the court called me for jury duty on a criminal trial. I knew that whoever the defendant was he certainly didn’t want me on his jury because sorry, you are guilty. When I got on the jury box the Judge who knows me very well said, “well officer you are excused maybe we can have you do a civil trial.” I am still the same way as a retired CO, don’t call me for a criminal trial, my mind is already made up. Guilty. Sorry about that but after 22 years I have no sympathy for someone who is a criminal.

 
Male_user commander 277 posts

The question about cruel and unusual punishment will always be a hot topic. What is right to some is not right to others. We, who have worked inside will always have a different opinion. We see them for what they really are. Not some show on television that depicts them as being human. No human covers their self in feces and then eats it. No human masturbates on females and then tries to ejaculate on them. No human spits on, throws urine on, or throws feces on another human being. So what is cruel to outsiders is fair game to us. Prisons are run by predatory Inmates who can’t wait to get back to the street to become famous. They thrive on the attention they get. There is no fear of being locked up in jail or prison. They will always be a POS. There are a select few who committed crimes and are generally remorseful and probably never commit another crime. Just not that many of them.

 
Male_user Squeeze 135 posts

To that professor I would say; the cruelty and inhumaness is the point. It is the responsability of society to rid itself of such inhumane people. Illistration. Inmate Carl.B was arrested for murdering 2 people many years ago. In Oregon State Pr he murdered another inmate and if I remember correctly severely injured a correctional officer. Then he was transferred to a BOP facility. The murdering continued in prison. My personal experience was of a seemingly un-impressive older inmate who murdered his wife. Then when he was released he ater murdered his girlfriend.The when he was released again and was old he murdered the next girlfriend. How many would have been saved had he been executed the first time? I don’t believe that that the death penalty deters murder but it sure stops that same person from murdering again. When a human being finds it acceptable to take another human life in murder that person surely will not hesitate to take another in similar circumstances. I of course am speaking in generalities but when does it end if we as a society do not end it?

 
Correction_officer jamestown0509 313 posts

On one of the Linked in groups that I belong to we got about 30 posts regarding the death penalty. One of those most adamant for not using the death penalty is a Professor. Saying it was inhumane, archaic and totally unnecessary. I wrote back to him and others that we really need to think of the families of the victim. I further told him if some goofball murdered his wife or kids like the ones in Connecticut where the mother and two daughters were raped then burned to death while tied to a bed- he might change his mind on the death penalty.

 
Male_user commander 277 posts

I agree totally with Transporter. Always have thought that. Public hangings or televised electric chair. The deterrance would be easy to measure. Might not stop crimes but, it would cut down on the violence. I still believe that if you are caught in the act of molesting a child, their parent or grand parent should be the one who chooses your punishment. Again, a great deterrant.

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