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Male_user Squeeze 135 posts

Ok after some research I have been corrected. Last year our state courts have ruled that the inmate MAY sign a DNR (Do Not Recssitate) order, however before the order goes into effect there has to be a mental health assesment to determine that the inmate is making a informed judgement and that the inmate is competent to make that decision. Thanks Campi, I was not up to snuff on my own states decisions, now I am.

 
Male_user Squeeze 135 posts

Interesting! I’ll have to look up what the federal caselaw has resulted in. If my understanding is correct (and it may not be) that would be suicide if the ailment could reasonably result in death, and most all states I am aware of suicide is illegal. However there may be some other twist to your particular state like Oregon where Dr assisted suicide(euthenasia) is legal.

 
Getty_rf_photo_of_cat_and_praying_mantis Campi 227 posts

Well in Ohio the inmates have the right to halt medical treatment so long as they sign a form that states they are going against the advice of a medical professional and acknowledge that doing so can lead to health problem and even death and releases the state from liability for their health.

 
Male_user Squeeze 135 posts

This is a case from Massachusetts. I know of several others that resulted in similar judgements. I don’t know about your particular state but where I work when it involves life saving treatment the inmate may be compelled by the institution to recieve treatment by reasonable force if necessary.

http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/379/379mass255.html

 
Getty_rf_photo_of_cat_and_praying_mantis Campi 227 posts

Squeeze I would love to agree with you but at the end of the day an inmate or their guardian can at any time go against the medical professional’s advice and sign an AMA form which releases the state of all liability and stop medical treatment.

 
Male_user RCJ 49 posts

Thanks Sqeeze, I agree. That clears up what I believe is an obvious and simple definition. Anybody can skew data and twist definitions to suit their argument or “stir the pot.” Some of these people like to waist time researching data and definitions to suit their argument and make themselves look smarter than they actually are.

 
Male_user Squeeze 135 posts

www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-ward-of-the-state.htm‎ Just one definition of the term. Note the 1st line of the paragraph.

 
Male_user Squeeze 135 posts

When convicted of a felony and awaiting sentencing the person becomes a “ward of the court”. A government agency who the acquires control of that person. They are remanded to the local short term holding facility. when the transport order is issued by the court and remanded to the state correctional system they become “wards” of the state whom assumes responsibility for that persons care.or freedom. That person still retains most of their civil rights however basic care is the responsibility of the state. The inmate still has freedom to make decisions about their healthcare to most extent except in the area of life or death decisions. The state has the responsibility to maintain good health until such time as the inmate is released,executed or expires of natural causes. There are several common definitions of “ward of the state” but unless defined in the state statutes the common meaning remains valid.

 
Flag1-1 shakeyjake 112 posts

Yeah, what the Assassin said.

 
Remle-riflepg irish assassin 286 posts

In Ohio inmates are considered wards of the state

 
Male_user totallackey 13 posts

Squeeze, I am unsure of what state you live in, but as far as I am aware, there is no state in the entire Union that considers a person the ward of the state simply because they are incarcerated. There must be some other legal factor involved before any other entity can assume any control over the affairs of another.

 
Male_user Squeeze 135 posts

I can’t speak for everyone elses state here but where I am if an incarcerated person is so incapacitated that a legal guardian is required that incarcerated person is placed in BMH care, thats a legal term for Board of Mental Health. Therefore that particular inmate is placed in a facility that is designed for the needs of the inmate. If the incarcerated person does not have such a debilitating mental deficiency they are sentenced to PRISON by the COURTS which then they are considered WARDS of the STATE! If there is a physical debilitating condition but are mentally capable of making decisions then they have special housing units designed for those issues and get free to the inmate (but not the taxpayer) healthcare. There is some discretion given to the inmate on their healthcare decisions but the STATE’s designated healtcare provider has the ultimate decision. This is because that inmates healthcare was decided by the court when sentenced to the states care. Either way the final decision making authority is the state.

 
Male_user totallackey 13 posts

LegalGuardian writes:
“First, using a dictionary to define the term “ward” is a joke. The term ward is defined by state law, for example, Mo. Rev. Stat. Sec 475.010(22) holds “Ward”, a minor or an incapacitated person for whom a guardian, limited guardian, or standby guardian has been appointed.”

Do you think the court simply arrives at this definition without consulting a legal dictionary?

Explain the appreciable difference between the legal dictionary of “ward,” and what the courts have decided.

 
Male_user totallackey 13 posts

Sorry Legalguardian. It seems you want an argument for argument for arguments sake. I will argue if you like, but a little background info concerning what country, state, locale, would be helpful.

Most states I know do not consider adult offenders “wards,” of the state and never have. Most adults I know do not have a “legal guardian,” and neither are they entitled to have one, unless they are incapacitated to such a degree as to affect sound, mental judgment.

Granted, since the abolishment of NIMH, we have found more and more such people within the confines of any prison in the US.

 
Getty_rf_photo_of_cat_and_praying_mantis Campi 227 posts

Well I would love to point out that 90-99% of the time when a guard or staff member makes an inmate sign anything it’s basically a signature to show they received a receipt or copy of something. They may be your ward but when I have to issue a copy of something to someone if you are not standing next to your ward I am able to issue it to them and legally reissue you one on request. This is basically a chain of custody to show that the process has been fallowed for the states accountability. If you want to sit in on a hearing with the rules infraction board and if you need to be contacted for anything these arrangements are made. They are done through the admins or unit staff. If it is a non medical emergency then yes the ward or yourself has the ability to state if or if not your ward wants to have treatment and if the legal grounds show that the inmate is incapable of making any decision and a standing order is in their medical file then you will be contacted. If there is no standing orders or prior orders in place then we will act accordingly based on our policies and procedures. The major issues you will have to deal with at a later time are if these standing orders are not in place and showing knowledge. Then when we get into areas that are covered by complied consent and since you and not standing beside the inmate to tell us not to perform a medical process to save or even prolong the inmates life the policies in place will take precedence over whatever you want because we have a duty and legal obligation to protect and guard the life of the incarcerated individual. So long story short if you want to have legal standing and control you have to make sure these things are known. Even if the admins know that does not ever make it to me unless the inmate states so to me or has some kind of medical bracelet or badge attached to their ID. Then unless those things are present and you can prove that I have prior knowledge anything I do will be covered by the states policy or The Good Samaritan Act. We are not trained in these policies they are covered in a legal line in our job description to fallow all state and institutional policies which there is one drafted somewhere I am sure. Though if this person was this incapable of taking care of themselves why are you not in jail for neglect of your ward for allowing them to do something to go to prison in the first place? Also why are they not in a mental ward somewhere so that they can receive proper care and treatment?

 
Flag1-1 shakeyjake 112 posts

.Wow, So I happen to be in an area with inmates that are wards of some sort and I should have the training to know how to deal with this mundane crap you are talking about. So that means that if I’m working in the kitchen as a C/O, I should also be trained in portion size, proper food temps and sanitation regulations also. You have to remember that not all C/O’s here are form the same city, county, state or country as you. Yes you point out a US code, that’s fine but all laws are debatable in a court room, if it was adhered to as wrote, we would not need attorneys would we. So do you have a legit complaint here, I guess that will be determined in a court of law and of course how good of a debater you really are. We also have mentally challenged inmate that are on case loads in a regular correction setting, how are we supposed to know this and treat them differently when they live next to regular inmates, we can’t so we treat them the same until it’s determined otherwise. I take it from how you write that you work with these types of inmates, if so that means your perspective is one sided, because you know who you are dealing with. So just relax, chill out and let this forum fade out of your system, before you become a ward of someone yourself.

I know my grammer sucks, so give me a break.

 
Remle-riflepg irish assassin 286 posts

True, the examples given are nowhere close in severity. Yet a violation of the law is still a violation of the law. Odd how every attempt I’ve made to define the term “ward” including the legal dictionarys used by multiple agencies all give the same answer, yet it doesn’t apply to your situation for some reason unknown to anyone else here except you. Did I miss the day of my training when the federal courts got together and decided legal and reconized definitions of words in the english language can be modified at any time? If you can prove me wrong than great, I’ll humbly eat crow on this one. Yet so far you’ve posted no links to any kind of certified documentation to prove that the years of state law backed training we’ve all been though is wrong.

 
Male_user LegalGuardian 8 posts

@ RJ — you are correct in that the CO’s are out of the loop. However, this does not mean that they should not be trained on the duties and authority of Guardians. Many times CO’s have tried to demand and even harass my ward to sign conduct violation reports they issue to him because they are not trained and educated about my duties and authority. It does not matter that signing such is not an admission of guilt to the allegation made, and many of which I have gotten dismissed and expunged, as it is that it is a legal document. Moreover, there have been times my ward has been written up by CO’s for doing exactly what I told him to do involving his medical and his mental health care and treatment.

@ Irish — Spare me the rhetoric because a traffic stop is nowhere close to what I am discussing here, as it is a matter of state and federal law, and not some lame dictionary definition, that defines what is to occur and what actions those in government may and may not take against someone.

 
Remle-riflepg irish assassin 286 posts

Interesting approach to the law you got there. Think I might try that one next time I get a traffic ticket. “Excuse me judge but to use the factual definition of the term speeding is a joke and thus I’m not guilty.” Willing to bet the folks with all those high and mighty law degrees might get a good laugh at that one.

 
Male_user RCJ 49 posts

LegalGuardian, explain how that applies to the role of the CO’s? We have nothing to do with their health care or sanctions imposed by the administration. As far as health care there are a lot of things that we can’t know because Data Privacy and HIPAA . With that said the CO’s are out of the loop as far as health care is concerned. We monitor inmate movement in and out of these areas and have nothing to do with inmate medical records.

As for sanctions imposed for facility rule violations, the CO’s write a violation report and from there Due Process is in the hands of the administration.

 
Male_user LegalGuardian 8 posts

First, using a dictionary to define the term “ward” is a joke. The term ward is defined by state law, for example, Mo. Rev. Stat. Sec 475.010(22) holds “Ward”, a minor or an incapacitated person for whom a guardian, limited guardian, or standby guardian has been appointed."

Second, while an inmate has to have permission from prison personnel to move about the prison, that is NOT giving consent to medical or mental health personnel to treat. You clearly overreach your authority to equate one with the other when it is not the same. Prison personnel do not sign the consent to treat form that must be signed every time medical treatment – no matter what is done – is provided to the inmate.

Third, yes, before an inmate who has a guardian can be treated by medical and mental health personnel, the guardian’s consent must be obtained from medical and mental health personnel. Every time my ward needs treatment I am contacted by phone or email and asked for permission for my ward to be treated. I in turn issue an email giving consent to treat or denying consent. If I deny consent, medical and mental health personnel cannot legally provide treatment to my ward – if they do it is involuntary treatment and thus, a criminal act.

Likewise, I am also included in any disciplinary hearings involving my ward because I am his dully-appointed legal guardian with the authority to make decisions and the mandate to protect him and his rights. My ward is prohibited by law from signing legal documents because he is adjudicated to be totally incapacitated and totally disabled without exception, and that includes signing any and all administrative forms that prisons use, e.g. conduct violation forms, disciplinary forms, and all types of grievances forms.

My original question in posting this thread was to ascertain what, if any, training correctional officers receive about the duties and authority of guardians. Your responses not only show you do not receive any training and education, but that as a result you take adversarial roles against even the notion that someone on the outside, e.g. a guardian, has legal authority to direct what happens inside prison involving their ward

It is one thing to be uneducated about such, but clearly your positions are one of not wanting to even try to be educated – for you immediately reject anything that says you do not have the ultimate supreme authority over an inmate.

As a Guardian, I am legally entitled to file suit against any prison guard and official for and on behalf of my ward, see Federal Rules of Civil Procedure Rule 17, just as I am legally entitled to and have the legal duty to make decisions about my wards prison conditions, medical care and treatment, and mental health care and treatment.

So, as I previously wrote – it is plainly evident that none of you are properly trained and educated about the duties and authority of dully-appointed guardians, and the numerous state and federal laws that come into play such as, but not limited to 42 U.S.C. Sec 12203(b), which makes it a violation of federal law, e.g. the Americans with Disabilities Act, to interfere with me discharging my duties and exercising my authority for and on behalf of my ward in his prison conditions, and his medical and mental health treatment.

Before you posture yourself in the adversarial roles you have, try educating yourself first.

 
Remle-riflepg irish assassin 286 posts

The answer to the statement of permission is every day. Inmates cannot go into medical, dental, mental health or other such areas without a pre approved pass or staff clearance, However this permission must be reasonably granted in accordance with department policies. Can inmates make decisions on declining medical care? Sure, they just sign a AMA refusal of care and that documents care was offered and declined.

Far as the term “ward” goes lets look at the definitions of the term. In this case I do believe the following are applicable.

Ward = 1a : the action or process of guarding b : a body of guards
2: the state of being under guard; especially : custody

6: a person or thing under guard, protection, or surveillance: as a : a minor subject to wardship b : a person who by reason of incapacity (as minority or mental illness) is under the protection of a court either directly or through a guardian appointed by the court —called also ward of court c : a person or body of persons under the protection or tutelage of a government

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ward

According to the legal standpoint a government agency can take wardship over an individual person for multiple reasons. Anything from being incapable to care for themselves, i.e. mental incapacity, foster care system, prison system, etc. When this happens the agency is now considered the legal guardian of said person for that time frame. Also known as “Ward of the court or Ward of the state”. If those powers did not exist then no state would have a penal, foster care or confined mental health system. You mention the Missouri state law but you only quote the part that fits your view. It mentions “terms of compact” yet no terms are stated or defined in your quote. Sorry, but pick and choose does not apply to said issues.

In conclusion inmates or prisoners as you call them are indeed wards of the courts and states. I’ve delt with enough “jailhouse lawyer” BS in my time to notice a half assed attempt to claim special treatment, and this is just another piss poor song and dance routine. Simple way to define it in laymens terms is, get convicted of a crime and you become government property. Just because you don’t like the facts doesn’t make them any less true.

 
Barney-fife-238x300 knuckle dragger 42 posts

Legal guardian…… So little sally rottencrotch should be directed only by you, for any of his/her mental health and medical needs? If that inmate needs an aspirin or toothbrush it should be cleared by you first? That the health professionals and corrections officers, should listen only to the legal guardian when there is a decision to be made? If an inmate is trying to kill or sexually assault that inmate we should check with you? If that inmate tries to injure or kill themselves we should check with you? Now I get what you’re saying I’m sure you’re correct, because you read those legal journals at the library and had that night class. You have the definitive answer for everything, thank you for clearing that up. So the inmates that are wards of the state, aren’t really wards of the state? I’m going to take my best crayon and write that down. Oh and could you help me with a spelling since I didn’t get past the fourth grade? Is this the right spelling for insipid dickhead? Sincerely Ward.

 
Male_user RCJ 49 posts

LegalGuardian, it appears that you are clueless when it comes to the duties and responsibilites of a Corrections Officer (CO). Your concerns need to be taken up with administrations as the CO is mainly concerned with safety and security, as well as enforcing policies and procedure set forth by the administration. I don’t understand why so you are hell bent on a definition of a word because it doesn’t apply to the CO’s. I also find your subltle attack on CO’s as arrogant and based on your own ignorance the CO’s required duties. I also find it a bit offensive, but very humorous.

 
Male_user LegalGuardian 8 posts

I realize that each of you are trained to believe one thing, but I assure you and there is case laws that proves you are incorrect about your belief that inmates are “wards of the state” because they are in prison, as they are not “wards” at all.

The term “ward” is a legal title that is only and can only be given to an incapacitated or disabled person by a probate court of law, when the person is incapable by reason of a disability or age (in cases of minors) to provide for themselves.

Every prisoner, unless ordered by a probate court of law, has the legal right to make his or her own medical, mental health, and financial decisions in prison. Every time they file a medical service request they are signing a statement giving their consent to treat and every time they sign a mental health treatment plan, they are signing a statement that they give consent to treat.

You guys are completely misusing the term “ward” to mean something it does not mean because it is a legal title that is codified in state law. Yes, the inmate is in the care, control, and custody of the State by and through the Dept of Corrections, but they are NOT a ward of the state – the criminal court has ZERO legal authority to issue such orders as to make the inmate a ward of the state.

I also assure you that every state has a state law that requires prison personnel to abide by the legal authority of Guardian’s of any inmate (regardless of their age) housing in any state prison. This state law falls under the Interstate Compact laws, for example in Missouri it is Section 217.535 at Article IV in paragraph (i) which holds:

“[T]he parent, guardian, trustee, or other person or persons entitled under the laws of the sending state to act for, advise, or otherwise function with respect to any inmate shall not be deprived of or restricted in his exercise of any power in respect of any inmate confined pursuant to the terms of this compact.”

So, please stop telling me how inmates are wards of the state because they ARE NOT WARDS, they are prisoners and there is a HUGE difference between the two. If they were wards, they would loose all civil rights to give their own consent for medical and mental health treatment and to make decisions about their financial matters.

When was the last time that you know of that a prisoner had to have the consent of a prison guard, case manager, or ward, to go to sick call, to receive dental services, to receive medications, or to be treated by a mental health worker? Moreover, when was the last time you know of that a court dismissed a prisoner civil rights lawsuit on the basis that a prison official had to file the lawsuit for and on behalf of the prisoner because the prisoner was a ward of the state? NEVER, that’s when.

As the guardian of my ward, who is in prison, only I can file lawsuits on his behalf and only I can give consent for him to receive medical, mental health, and dental services, care, and treatment, and only I can sign prison forms for and on his behalf.

Clearly none of you are actually trained about the duties and the authority of Guardian’s under state and federal statutory laws and court rules.

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